It may be RISC-V benefits from some extentions to facilitate co-existance of OS and portability. Om pagina's op Hardware Info te kunnen bekijken, moet je de cookies accepteren door op 'Ja, ik accepteer cookies' te klikken. What would also be good is a performance per watt section too. New RISC-V CPU claims recordbreaking performance per watt. Where the balance lies is a question between RISC-V, OS vendors and IHVs, and consumers and I think there is some scope for discussion. performance per watt. Performance metrics: delay (execution time) per instruction; MIPS *CPI (cycles per instr): abstracts out the MHz *SPEC (int or fp); TPM: factors in b’mark, MHz energy and power metrics: joules (J) and watts (W) joint metric possibilities (perf and power) watts (W): for ultra LP processors; also, thermal issues Reading through wiki I note RISC-V have incorporated themselves in Switzerland to avoid the issue of unilateral sanctions. Marketing especially unethical marketing by its nature is not about communication and persuasion on the merits but about subverting your judgement. A lot was identical differing only in implementation where implementations certified for industrial use took less shortcuts and were pixel accurate, and retail implementations were a bit quick and dirty in places and sacrificed accuracy for performance reasons. I don’t know really being only casually familiar with it. You would be better served by talking in a less technical way, and in one that emphasizes clarity. They add one or more layers of printed SolarPV to conventional PV to boost performance. I always thought OpenGL got a lot of things right. ... 20 percent price/performance advantage at the chip level compared to the best that Intel and AMD can throw at the cost per performance per watt equation that dominates the buying decisions of the hyperscalers and cloud builders that Ampere Computing is targeting. We were also seeing event 533 in the Directory Services log. Can they scale to more demanding uses? You’ve explained some of the detailed issues which helps but there’s two issues here. I benchmarked it against the PineBook Pro. The politics is a bit of an issue I agree although the law is a lot clearer so easily subject to technical discussion and there is a fair degree of case law and science to lean on. The Core processors added SSE3 but continued to use a 32-bit instruction set. There would be other none technical considerations of course but I would expect anyone publishing this to consult and fold in the relevant sections. And you can find that at the RISC-V website, I won’t google that for you. Onze sites en apps gebruiken cookies, JavaScript en vergelijkbare technologie onder andere om je een optimale gebruikerservaring te bieden. I’m sure someone will find a use. AMD has launched the next-gen lineup of its Embedded processors in the form of the V2000 chips. https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/08/21/alibaba-on-the-bleeding-edge-of-risc-v-with-xt910/. The main problem at the abstract level is core versus extended functionality. CPU performance-per-watt test: wat is de efficiëntste processor? Does anyone have any ideas what? PassMark Software has delved into the thousands of benchmark results that PerformanceTest users have posted to its web site and produced nineteen Intel vs AMD CPU charts to help compare the relative speeds of the different processors. (In some cases CPU was actually faster than the hardware renderer due to the technology of the time. An individual Edge TPU is capable of performing 4 trillion operations (tera-operations) per second (TOPS), using 0.5 watts for each TOPS (2 TOPS per watt). Dell Active Power Control (or DAPC), relies on a BIOS-centric power control mechanism which offers excellent power efficiency advantages with minimal performance impact in most environments , and is the CPU Power Management choice for this overall … Woodcrest will give the server market more than 3 times the performance per watt of Intel's Nocona which debuted in 2004 and Merom will mean a 3x performance per watt boost for the mobile market since Intel presented the first Pentium M Banias in 2003. As for implemenations not necessarily open this is why I kind of obsess the issue including transcoding and architectual solutions or interfacing for modular systems which allow for genuine mix and match solutions. So I can see this chip stuff in the lower power market becoming very dominant, provided the applications can keep the processors cool. I’m not getting into whataboutary or having words put in my mouth and as I think we’ve covered everything this is probably a good place to end discussion. So to summarize, there is binary compatibility so long as bitness and ISA subsets match, but that doesn’t doesn’t mean that you can just move from one CPU to another and assume that IO and the like all work the same. To borrow from (classic) OpenGL again you have core functionality which is good enough for everyday use. I hear it is near 500 MFLOPS/W for entire computer ( www.green500.org ), but What is the current record for bare CPU or GPU chip? For a broader context there are software versus fastpath issues where a given OpenGL function may have been fully or only partially implemented in typically faster graphics card hardware . I would hate to think how much inaccurate information we would get we we started asking user's how many watts their GPU & CPU … But I still don’t think you get it, RISC-V is a ISA, just an ISA. So am I, but times change. Het gemiddelde stroomverbruik vertelt niet per se het volledige verhaal over hoe zuinig een cpu is. You say that you don’t care about implementation, which is fair enough given that many users don’t care either. I’m very curious about what would happen if we started including those $1 solar powered calculators in these performance per watt comparisons. I have some major reservations about all of these claims, mostly because of the lack of benchmarks that more accurately track real-world usage. With modern backend cloud implementations being available in the PS5 for some cases the fastpath will be over an external network.). At it’s high end it’s as capable as those processors so it would have a decent use case in the same space as what you’d use Pi’s or Rock64 boards on. But let me try and summarize as best as I can for you: It’s a modular instruction set architecture that can describe everything from an 8 bit to a 128 bit computer, but the well defined ISAs are for 16, 32, an 64 bit systems. Oops. But isn’t it OK for those to be a subset of the whole, so consumers can choose, and still know that code will run on those processors transparently as proprietary implementations? Anyways if you want to end the discussion here that’s ok! We kijken dan naar het verbruik tijdens diverse workloads, maar dat vertelt niet per se het volledige verhaal over hoe zuinig een cpu is. In the example case of the Intel Core i7-7820EQ, when CWR is applied with 94% performance preservation, the CPU power can be reduced to as low as 56% while the Performance-per-Watt is increased to 1.71 times higher. Ook derden kunnen je internetgedrag volgen, zoals bijvoorbeeld het geval is bij embedded video's van YouTube. I’d really like to see RISC become the platform of choice for FOSS, but we’ve got a bit of a catch-22: we need manufacturers to make these products viable, yet all too often when they do it comes will strings attached, proprietary blobs, and owner restrictions. For a long time, the equation 'clock speed = performance' was an accepted measure of real-world performance or in other words for value. This is true. Micro Magic Inc.—a small electronic design firm in Sunnyvale, California—has produced a prototype CPU that is several times more efficient than world-leading competitors, while retaining reasonable raw performance. I lament that this did not happen with ARM and for better or worse this leaves x86 (with all of it’s problems) as the friendliest FOSS platform to date. Comparison made against high-performing CPUs for notebooks and desktops, commercially available at the time of testing. What the Chinese are up to at a hardware level is a response but I’m fearing the Chinese are basically taking an open system and (like NVidia who are ten times worse than AMD/ATI ever were) are effectively closing it in practice. This might be very interesting for the embedded market already, but I must really wonder about these details. Micro Magic adviser Andy Huang claimed the CPU could produce 13,000 CoreMarks (more on that later) at 5GHz and 1.1V while also putting out 11,000 CoreMarks at 4.25GHz—the latter all while consuming only 200mW. However somebody obviously does have to care about this stuff and many of us here on osnews do find these things important. Part 1, [Updated with response from Apple] Macs are a privacy nightmare, Working from home at 25MHz: You could do worse than a Quadra 700. This may well be the same tactic for the processors, you can imagine an array of these devices working at low bandwidth/demand feeding a centralised conventional chip with heavily curated data, in effect doing all the housekeeping which could massively improve performance and efficiency. Hardware Info is onderdeel van DPG Media. If your questions are indeed about governance, you have done a bad job of explaining what you mean. Once you get to the FAB you are so caught up in proprietary processes you simply can’t be as open as you want (If I am reading you correctly), and if there were more restrictions placed on it then you wouldn’t see as many private companies adopting RISC-V so quickly (for example Western Digital). I’ve been trying for so long to encourage everyone to be patient and form their opinions based on data rather than marketing claims. CPUs play a key role in determining overall performance in balanced system s, but also account for more than half the power those systems consume. New RISC-V CPU claims recordbreaking performance per watt, https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/08/21/alibaba-on-the-bleeding-edge-of-risc-v-with-xt910/, https://nequalsonelifestyle.com/2020/12/06/mm-riscv-vs-rock64-arm/, Review: Dell Inspiron 6400 Core 2 Duo Laptop, Dueling Multicores: Intel and AMD Fight For the Future. Apple specifically needed backwards compatibility in order to run their customer’s proprietary mac software, but not everyone is as tied down to x86 software compatibility. I’m a bit sceptical of RISC-V as it seems more of an American thing, Oh china is biting pretty hard on RISC-V as well. I’m sure there will plenty of opportunity to revisit this in the future. The 'SYSmark Performance per Watt' can be misleading when comparing the dual and quad core processors, particularly when looking at other types of loads that make better use of the additional cores. Included in these lists are CPUs designed for servers and workstations (such as Intel Xeon and AMD EPYC/Opteron processors), desktop CPUs … Performance-per-watt (DAPC) profile is the default, and represents an excellent mix of performance balanced with power consumption reduction. Well you can see some of that discussed in the FAQ, and you can get into the weeds by looking at the implementer’s guide. In that SolarPV sector it’s more about heat management and durability when exposed to UV. I agree we are unlikely to see any movement on this although there are plenty of technical people who are interested. There are completely open and inspectable implementations of RISC-V that I think satisfy what you want, but at it’s core RISC-V is intended to spur innovation, research, implementations, etc by providing a common, IP-Free ISA. As you said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Daarom kijken we vandaag naar de performance-per-watt, oftewel de efficiëntie waarmee processors werken. Given time (and this is still very new) you probably will see chip manufacturers who are as open as they can possibly be, hell we may see completely open fabs at some point. Seeed studios sells various versions of them (and a rather cheap FPGA board if you want to experiment yourself). Tags: None. There is also the open source Hummingbird processors that are aiming at the Cortex-M space. https://nequalsonelifestyle.com/2020/12/06/mm-riscv-vs-rock64-arm/. This means that a RISC-V CPU can be anything from a microcontroller to a server grade CPU, and doesn’t have to implement the modules it doesn’t need. An open and competitive architecture won’t happen unless there is this involvement. For lowering the TDP I would set the CPU frequency lower, something at 2.5GHz or 2GHz. I was just adding my own opinion. It is indeed good advice to study the data and the rules behind what generated the data. But there isn’t a specific standard so that peripherals all work the same, or have the same memory addresses, etc for a microcontroller. The lesson of Apple’s M1 is that you don’t need new instructions (to the best of our knowlege there are no additional instructions in the M1 for that), but a different Mode to implement the intel consistency model so the code would execute more like an x64 processor. An NVIDIA Max-Q GPU is the same as a desktop one, it's simply just tuned to a different performance/power profile. Dankzij cookies van derde partijen kun je daarnaast informatie delen via sociale media, zoals Twitter en Facebook. It's because they've invested so much in performance per watt that they can be in all markets with ease and not having to waste time and money on new masks and semi-custom product research. I hear what you are saying, but I think you are looking for RISC-V to be more than it is, and that it wants to be. Sorry but I don’t get what you are saying. The Ice Lake and Zen 2 … This concerns me a great deal because while x86 has kind of been grandfathered in as a platform where FOSS can thrive, for most new devices coming out we aren’t so fortunate and very often we’re forced to hack into our own devices for the right to run independent software. I’m old enough to remember scenes on the news of Chinese wearing Mao suits and going everywhere on bicycle. Everyone has their opinions and musings. I am not saying anything about politics, but their policy of favoring home grown processors internally is creating great incentive to be competative. Onze nieuwe testmethode voor het stroomverbruik van cpu's is niet alleen veel accurater dan voorheen, maar maakt het ook mogelijk om uitspraken te doen over de efficiëntie van een processor. For the vast majority of use cases there’s no real need to step away from. Huang demonstrated the CPU -- running on an Odroid board -- to EE Times at 4.327GHz/0.8V and 5.19GHz/1.1V. A lot of people only want to focus on the benmarks where it does well and ignore those where it is behind. Since performance per watt is computed as a ratio of system performance (by some measure) divided by power consumed , a power-optimized CPU I do agree with your comments on why the Chinese are using RISC-V and other CPUs and what they are used for. For example: Putting words in your mouth, huh? Here is the thing, you keep asking low level questions (or ones that can only be answered in a low level way because of what RISC-V actually is), and then get seemingly upset when we answer that way. Performance per watt on Micro Magic's new CPU is eye-popping as compared to typical systems. You need to seperate the meta issues from business decisions from implementation. (It's worth noting that we had no way to run CoreMark … What are the best "performance per watt" (measured in MFLOPS/W) for current CPUs and GPU's? Exactly! The x86 memory model is more strict and emulating it in software is inefficient. Switzerland recently had its own scandal when it turned out one Swiss supplier of backdoored security products was owned by US and German intelligence. While Apple claims the octa-core M1 delivers “the world’s best CPU performance per Watt,” the M1 breaks down to less than 100 CoreMarks per Watt, claims Huang, an industry notable who designed the Finesim simulator. Meer informatie hierover vind je op hardware.info/extra/cookies. RISC-V doesn’t concern itself with operating system interoperability but to dictate that would be to limit implentors. What you are talking about is implementation… I think. I’m a bit sceptical of RISC-V as it seems more of an American thing and wonder if pushing RISC-V is less about technical and equity issues and more about who ultimately controls and influences the CPU platform. They probably learned a lot from microsoft’s x86 emulation and decided to go with hardware assistance. Small world. Micro Magic adviser Andy Huang claimed the CPU could produce 13,000 CoreMarks (more on that later) at 5GHz and 1.1V while also putting out 11,000 CoreMarks at 4.25GHz -- the latter all while consuming only 200mW. I think we’re talking at cross purposes or have different goals or priorities in mind. Later the same week, Micro Magic announced the same CPU could produce over 8,000 CoreMarks at 3GHz while consuming only 69mW of power. But it is also the ante to even be part of a CPU buying decision. AMD’s Ryzen 7 3700X is a generational CPU update that’s worth ... octa-core processor reached just 148 watts under load in ... demolishes its predecessor in performance per watt. I think you have to just look at the spec or trust me when I say the core spec defines a thoroughly modern CPU with feature sets on par with any modern CPU, I also think you need to define what you mean by transcoding, because it feels alien to my understanding of the term, After a lot of thought I suspect by transcoding you mean additional instructions to facilitate emulating other architectures (for example x64) vit a JIT or AOT compiler, and yes there is working group J that is looking into that, however that may not be the right approach. For some or all of this to work via a fastpath or slowpath (could be hardware or software) the overall concepts and systems and regulations which enable this need to be worked out and specified. As for whether it is good for all things all the time we don’t really know so comparing them to currents major CPUs isn’t an exact comparison. RE: Dell Power Edge R320 - Windows Server 2012 R2 - Hyper V - High CPU Utilization - Performance Per Watt Making the change in my environment did more than resolve high CPU usage. This can be annoying when you try to have an objective conversation, but that is human nature I suppose, haha. RISC-V endorsed the Wishbone bus for systems on a chip but vendors aren’t required to use it. I’m bothered about the general purpose baseline versus the use case specific implementation issues. I’m just happy being able to broach the subject. So calling conventions, etc aren’t defined. I’m content to leave thinsg there for now. I expect government regulators would have an eye on this too if public discussion got enough traction. When I say modular I mean that if you don’t want floating point, you can leave out that module, etc. Based on the 7nm Zen 2 core architecture and an enhanced form of Vega graphics on the same node, AMD is promising up to 2x more performance per watt, compared to the existing Zen+ based embedded parts. I’m more concerned about the abstract meta stuff like interoperability versus lock-in than what happens at the FAB end of the problem. We would do the same if we were in their shoes. CPU Performance Per Watt The data shows that both AMD and Intel demonstrate higher peak performance than the ARM CPU but at much higher power. This is the level I’m kind of discussing. RISC-V doesn’t guarantee open implementations, that is up to implementors to decide. Ars Technica summarises and looks at the various claims made by Micro Magic about their RISC-V core. No idea and the marketing puff doesn’t say. There was a universal core you could depend on with everything else being an extention. Post sell off of ARM I feel there has been an uptick in RISC-V astroturfing. Cookies kunnen gebruikt worden om op sites van derden relevante advertenties te tonen. As a FOSS user, what I want most is a very consistent and reliable boot strapping process where the owner is in control with no proprietary dependencies. In addition vendors are allowed to create their own modules to push functionality down to the processor level (for example this is what WD is doing). Lobbyists and vested interests with deep pockets and now too many politicians spend more time leaning on marketing than creating good legal frameworks and policy based on the public interest. . So so long as the bitness, and subsets match, binary executables will carry over and run the same, and this is what you (or at least I) would want. Then we had the Fahrenheit scandal where Microsoft punked SGI and then went on to use their monopoly to force Direct3D on the world as well as use their position to push into console gaming and the cloud (while not releasing OS which gave basic users and businesses the capability to host their own local cloud). Ultimately, while I have good vibes from RISC-V, I still fear that its openness could be subverted by corporate influences like has happened with most of our ARM devices. Performance per watt refers to the ratio of peak CPU performance to average power consumed using select industry standard benchmarks. However it provides implementors a common, modular, and extensible ISA that is unencumbered by patents or other IP concerns. Core processors focus on energy efficiency and a better performance per watt ratio, which the Pentium M already offered. Then again, last time I said anything about an upcoming processor, I was off by a million miles, so what do I know? Huang demonstrated the CPU—running on an Odroid board—to EE Times at 4.327GHz/0.8V and 5.19GHz/1.1V. This is the point where I think engineers need other people who understand the governance and consumer rights issues to step in and add support otherwise engineers are always going to be at the mercy of the boss class and financiers. I think this really needs a technical vision articulating examining what is and isn’t possible then a deeper look at the gotchas and whether vendors will cooperate or not, and the use and abuse of patents and copyright to stop an advance in this area. I don’t know enough about the engineering to know what is covered by patent versus trade secret to know how much or little they can open up and this is before international security and trade wars are considered. People often take such things for granted, but if too few people take an active role to ensure open platforms remain viable, they can become marginalized and become niche/”second class citizens” in the real world. Extraordinary claims requite extraordinary evidence, and I feel like some vague photos just doesn’t to the trick of convincing me. I’ve been involved on a bit of this stuff for the printed SolarPV, in that sector the target is $1/m² but the cost of what you can do in that square meter doesn’t rise proportionally with the density of devices on the film. The instruction pipeline was reduced to 12 stages, yet the fastest Core processor achieved a slightly higher clock speed compared to the Pentium M, thanks to a new 65 nm manufacturing process. RISC-V could implement an x86 compatibility mode like apple, but for users like myself though, I don’t really see much benefit in emulating x86 code and I suspect most people who find RISC-V appealing aren’t that interested in emulating x86 either. That is is. During a presentation at HPE Cast 2019, AMD revealed that their 3rd Generation Zen 3 based EPYC CPUs codenamed 'Milan', would offer better performance per watt than Intel's 10nm Xeon chips. With both M1 and this there is a reason for healthy skepticism, even if the results ultimately prove out in the end. Because RISC-V doesn’t dictate the implementation, extra instructions for emulation aren’t guaranteed to matter. I see the administrator has now added a performance per dollar section. Tomas Hochstenbach 15 juli 2018 05:59 86 reacties Inhoudsopgave It’s the same with politics. It will be interesting to see how AMD will react to Intel's next-generation processors. Some scepticism and expertise is required and not everyone has the training or time or inclination for this. There is flexibility but this contains gotchas. Implementations are potentially going to vary within a single semiconductor company, and this is what we want. Fair comment. How that translates to performance for your application depends on a variety of factors. For people with use case and power envelopes which match the capabilities either would be useful if Arstechnica tests are accurate. This is why I asked you to define what you meant, and ended up making a guess. Don’t beat yourself up, the M1 did well in some benchmarks and poorly in others. We first noticed Micro Magic’s claims earlier this week, when EE Times reported on the company’s new prototype CPU, which appears to be the fastest RISC-V CPU in the world. I’m quite confused that this is your response to me. The nitty gritty of transcoding and subsystems (and VMs) cooperating with each other to anyone can run anything they like without vendor lock-in and forced obsolescence is a technical thing. I would choose something as Haswell Refresh or Skylake. Elke watt kost je per jaar €1,30 aan energie, dus dat kost je per jaar meer dan 30 euro extra. At this point I’d be happy if someone with influence produce a discussion document covering things like acces to instruction sets, interoperability with things like transcoding, the OS and VM layers, support for end users investments in software, the use of escrow and barriers such as copy protection and copyright. GCC and LLVM collaborated on what they wanted from a compiler implementation level, but anyone is fine to define their own (as with any other CPU). For the M1, apple chose to implement x86 memory model in hardware rather than in software to avoid certain implied inefficiencies of software overhead. If it’s something people can run with at some point I’m sure they will pipe up. We need to give implementers the freedom to experiment and innovate, and RISC-V gives them a compatible ISA to do that. At an abstract level I don’t really care whether transcoding is done via hardware or software (ditto support for VMs and hooks or subsystem mechanisms for different OS to run at the same time). Micro Magic adviser Andy Huang claimed the CPU could produce 13,000 CoreMarks (more on that later) at 5GHz and 1.1V while also putting out 11,000 CoreMarks at 4.25GHz—the latter all while consuming only 200mW. Given that it's a single CPU machine, too, a lot of resources are saved by not having to care about cache coherency. It’s surprisingly difficult to convince people to detach themselves from preconceived opinions and look at the data sometimes. RISC-V is one of the ways they are doing that, along with RISC-V, MIPS, ARM, and x86. We first noticed Micro Magic’s claims earlier this week, when EE Times reported on the company’s new prototype CPU, which appears to be the fastest RISC-V CPU in the world. Cookies kunnen worden gebruikt om op Hardware Info advertenties te tonen en artikelen aan te bevelen die aansluiten op je interesses. The industry then broke down into industrial use versus game use. Update 11/20/20 10am PT: We've added the Ryzen 5 5600X, Ryzen 9 5950X, 5900X, and Ryzen 7 5800X to our rankings, along with all of the previous-gen Zen 3, Zen+, and Zen 1 versions of those chips. Implementations are left to implementors. Interesting once the cost target was reached in printed SolarPV it hasn’t supplanted traditional silicon as first thought, but it’s become supplemental. Ook kunnen we hierdoor het gedrag van bezoekers vastleggen en analyseren, en deze informatie toevoegen aan bezoekersprofielen. In onze tests van processors is het energieverbruik een vast onderdeel.